


To those who have lost hope for Jon and Dany in GRRM's ending...not all is lost and here is why

by SweetShireen



Category: A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms, A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, Game of Thrones (TV), song - Fandom
Genre: 2D got fired from star wars and admitted in inside the ep that they made this shit up, And still redeemable, D&D are a disgrace to good writing, F/M, Gen, Give me ruthless cunning Dany and Jon over this shit any day, I could have written better in my eight grade book report, I take some quotes and try to convince you guys that Martin really just gave D&D a bullet list, Its possible but would need MASSIVE groundwork to be believable, Jonerys, Mad Queen Dany is just that a THEORY, Much better set up, Poetic Justice, Stop believing crack authors like D&D they are NOT canon theyre a JOKE, TYRANT MORALLY AMBIGUOUS DANY?, and they ripped that paper to shreds and rewrote it using crumbling crayons, looking back 6 months later and damn i was really angry writing this lmao, still am tho, this is NOT GRRM's ending
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2019-05-16
Updated: 2019-05-16
Packaged: 2020-03-06 13:31:02
Rating: Not Rated
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Chapters: 1
Words: 2,802
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/18852055
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/SweetShireen/pseuds/SweetShireen
Summary: A lot of false information is being passed around recently and fan interpretations are being touted around like the truth with people screaming that the show ending IS or very closely resembles GRRM's ending. As a result, a lot of our own fandom has lost hope and some have even abandoned the ship all together, because it really does seem too depressing and pointless to stay invested if that is the case. This post is to present what George has ACTUALLY said in regards to the show, prove how baseless some of these rumors are, and also establish just how far D&D have strayed from the core material of Jon and Dany, specifically in regards to GRRM's intended ending. Season 8 is not and will never be canon.





	To those who have lost hope for Jon and Dany in GRRM's ending...not all is lost and here is why

**Author's Note:**

> There’s a petition going around to re-make Season 8:  
> https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers  
> Obviously, it won’t actually happen, but it’s a great way to humiliate D&D for their half assed effort and let the world know that MOST fans do NOT accept this season as canon. Already 500k+ and CNN, BBC, etc have written articles about it. At least we can put out frustrations into getting petty revenge! Lmao. Waiting for that mass media condemnation. Now, that’s what you call “bittersweet.”

A lot of false information is being passed around recently and fan interpretations are being touted around like the truth with people screaming that the show ending IS or very closely resembles GRRM's ending. As a result, a lot of our own fandom has lost hope, and some have even abandoned the ship all together, because it really does seem too depressing and pointless to stay invested if that is the case. This post is to present what George has ACTUALLY said in regard to the show, prove how baseless some of these rumors are, and also establish just how far D&D have strayed from the core material of Jon and Dany, specifically in regards to what we know of GRRM and GRRM's intended ending.

First, let’s establish what exactly GRRM said about the show and examine how involved he really is. “I’ve been so slow with these books,” Martin told Rolling Stone. “The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.”

He told D&D the ending more than half a decade ago what the major points were! One, that is a LOT of time for them to have changed Dany’s character arc and smooth in “Mad! Queen” if that was the exact major point GRRM mentioned. It’s much more likely that they knew major points like “Dany burns King’s Landing,” or even “King’s Landing burns after Dany and so and so character clash,” the whole point is that we don’t know the specifics, the extent of damage, the motivations, when it happens or even who does it! And most importantly, neither does GRRM. As of right now, he has a vague understanding of the ending but he clearly has no idea how to get there from his recent confirmation that ADOS hasn’t even started and that he says there MAY or may not have differences.

Nothing is set in stone. Let that sink in.

Now, let’s look at how much time and influence GRRM spent on this season besides something he told D&D 6 years ago. He explained his input in the final season was limited to “several days of story conferences taking place in my home in Santa Fe, New Mexico.” So D&D talked about the show over dinner with him a couple of times and called it a day. Great. So much effort. So much input to make sure their visions aligned. It’s not like D&D are known for abandoning canon constantly to “spice” things up and get cheap shock factors. /s

What does GRRM have to say about all that they’ve changed in the years? “It can also be… traumatic. Because sometimes their creative vision and your creative vision don’t match, and you get the famous creative differences thing — that leads to a lot of conflict.” TRAUMATIC. Well, who wouldn’t be traumatized seeing your characters and story butchered? Is this the first time GRRM has disagreed with D&D? Far from it. He used to be very hands on in contributing to the show- that stopped around S4 and iirc it was when D&D refused to include Lady Stoneheart that he really hit a wall. Not so coincidentally, the seasons after S4 slowly started to decline.

This isn’t a case of D&D having zero inspiration to go on—they had GRRM on speed dial for god’s sake-- it’s a case of them refusing to include crucial aspects of canon, interchanging character arcs nonsensically, and adding in their own plot devices simply because they could. It’s arrogance and carelessness, something you can again see very clearly from how they treated actors who had read the books/were familiar with canon and questioned their direction: the actor for Jamie has since Season 4(!!) argued that Jamie’s actions were out of character and was told to shut up and “just say the words” as an actor; the actor for Barristan Selmy wrote a lengthy letter explaining to them why his early death would be ridiculous for both the character and plot, but D&D revealed publicly that it only made them want to kill him even more. There is definitely arrogance at play here and a total lack of respect for the actual source material. It should come to no surprise to anyone that they took the “major points” GRRM gave them and twisted it beyond measure.

Martin said: “The series has been… not completely faithful. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.” Obviously, Martin isn’t going to attack the very show that he gives him millions of dollars nor will he ever publicly speak against the changes too vehemently. But his inaction shows just as much. He has to hesitate when asked about how much it’s changed and only offers how much more could have been included. How much did D&D change to compensate the missing plotlines? How many character arcs did they converge into a single person? Things like having Sansa raped instead of Jeyne for a BS “empowerment?” Things like making up the Night King, ignoring the Stark kids’ warging abilities, ignoring the intricacies the lore entirely? Things like taking out fAegon and his allies that could have completely changed everything? There’s no end to it. Why do people think that they didn't treat the "major points" the same way?

Now, moving on to the Mad!Queen theory everyone seems to have accepted as fact, there is literally no proof that it’s in line with Dany’s character whether in the show OR the book! Foreshadowing. Is. Not. Character. Development. YES, at the end of the last book, Dany after struggling in Mereen for so long and making compromise after compromise for peace, decides that she will move forth with “fire and blood.” This is a turning point for her that we have yet to see ANY actions for yet, similar to Jon after he’s resurrected, where she embraces the ruthless, no-nonsense side of her character and decides to take the reins. It is a starting foundation for her to be more reckless, more ferocious, more like a tyrant. A dictator. A conqueror. That’s not the same thing as being insane. It would also be just lie GRRM to have the compassionate, well intentioned saviour become the tyrant she hated most. However, in ASOIAF many people act like ruthless tyrants and they are not all irredeemable…neither, I believe will Dany be. More importantly, there is no MEANING to Mad! Queen Dany besides “hurr durr you can’t escape the genes,” and GRRM is simply not the kind of author to go for that lazy writing.

People keep bringing up what GRRM has said previously in an interview about ‘The Scouring of the Shire’: “Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire —brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: ’Why is this here? The story’s over?’ But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. **All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for.** Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.”

There is a user on reddit who perfectly summed up my thoughts. Read only the BOLDED parts if you want a TLDR: “… it is clear to see that Tolkien’s ending is an inspiration for George and that he told D&D the basic story beats of his envisioned ending. If we take from this that GRRM wants to deliver his own interpretation of the scouring, we have to understand what the scouring actually is.

 **The Scouring of the Shire (whether purposeful or accidental) represents the reality of life after war.** After all the things these Hobbits have seen, they return home to see that in their absence things have changed…If we look at the ending of Beowulf (for obvious Tolkien related reasons) and try to discern meaning (as I’m sure many people have done far better than me), what **we see is that even after the dragon is defeated, people still live in fear. Evil is never truly vanquished, because evil in simply an interpretation of fear** … Taking all this into account, we now have to try and figure out if GRRM agrees with this allegory and what he said in regard to it: “ **It was this kind of sad elegy on the price of victory**. I think the scouring of the Shire is one of the essential parts of Tolkien's narrative now, and gives it depth and resonance, and **I hope that I will be able to provide an ending that's similar to all of that.”**

Now, whilst he doesn’t tell us how he sees it specifically, we get that he thought it was a ‘sad elegy’. So, we know that George wants a part of his ending (if it is like Tolkien’s) **to be a reflection of what was lost before we move on to being hopeful for what’s to come**. Whereas the Hobbits (as a community) lost their childlike innocence (and ignorance) in the chapter, **we know that thematically the main characters in A Song of Ice and Fire of Westeros will also find loss in their identity.** In real world terms, boys were sent off to war in order to fight the ‘war to end all wars’ and in the process lost their innocence. They then returned to a home that didn’t care and was beset by an already existing everyday evil that was sought to destroy their meaning and values as communities.

**So, perhaps GRRM will kill of the White Walker threat in a similar fashion. The heroes will win in this battle of good versus evil, and the rest of the book will be an elegy to this victory. ASOIAF has never been so black and white, but it still wouldn’t surprise me to see the White Walkers being taken out long before the final book ends. However, I will not and do not conform to the opinion that the destruction of King’s Landing (as presented by D &D) is GRRM’s own version of the Scouring.**

**It doesn’t make any narrative sense. The turn of Dany, from heroic Queen like character (admittedly with hints of a sociopathic grandeur), to complete psychopath doesn’t say anything about the war that has just been won, other that it is all pointless. It is so nihilistic that a man who has gone on record as saying “…my worldview is anything but nihilistic” would not allow this to happen in his magnum opus."**

Back to me. Let me repeat. GRRM has said “…my worldview is _anything but nihilistic_ ” whereas the show’s ending is EXACTLY that. TLDR: The show having Dany burn KL after winning the War for no reason and then being killed by her lover also for no reason is NOT “an elegy” or “the price of victory,” or showing the “latent evil” still present. There is no reflection NOTHING in that ending.

Here’s another quote from GRRM,  if you want to know how he feels about war and endings, about the Vietnam War which he is VERY outspoken about. “I don’t think America has ever quite recovered from Vietnam. The divisions in our society still linger to this day. For my generation it was a deeply disillusioning experience, and it had a definite effect on me. The idealistic kid who graduated high school, a big believer in truth, justice and the American way, all these great values of superheroes of his youth, was certainly less idealistic by the time I got out of college.”

Sound similar to another idealistic girl filled with the tales of her family’s legends and purpose? GRRM also talked about how the soldiers were told they were going to Vietnam for glory and doing the right thing only to find people simply protecting themselves from invaders of their home. Sound similar??? Dany coming as a “Saviour” to Westeros only to find the masses already accepting fAegon and losing her purpose? Dany fighting an ultimately pointless war and setting fire to KL inadvertently, perhaps hitting those wildfire caches? Losing her purpose and the person she prides herself in being, redeeming herself through the war with the others? Even my 30 sec theory makes more sense and is in line with GRRM’s style than the garbage D&D wrote.

There is so much more evidence I can bring up that shows D&D have made MASSIVE changes that I don’t see GRRM doing at ALL. Least of all what a non-issue the Others turned out to be after Martin repeatedly said that THEY are the big enemy, the complete disregard for the prophecies GRRM made sure to constantly allude to, the multiple twisted character arcs in S8 that would destroy all character development (*cough* Jaime *cough*), keeping Cersei alive for so long and actions having 0 consequences etc etc etc.

And now for the clincher. Will Jonerys even happen in the books? Even if they do, will Jon end up killing Daenerys and everything goes to shit? 100% Jonerys will be canon,. GRRM has set up SO much foreshadowing, hints, and parallels all to converge upon their meeting that it’s not even in question. The Dany and Jon who will meet will be much darker and morally grey than their show counterparts, but also much more nuanced. THIS Dany will be the one who had constantly advocated for compromise and peace while her advisors urged for violent methods (not the other way around), only to succumb to reality and realize that sometimes there’s no other way. THIS Jon will be cunning and ruthless and probably very paranoid, and less tunnel visioned after his death (not someone who blindly allows himself to be manipulated and lied to, not seeing the bigger picture), this Jon would could care less about getting with his aunt when his own Stark ancestors had married their nieces. Point is, even if one or two of them DO end up dying, it will be much more understandable and not for contrived reasons (the “strong powerful woman killed by my lover” screams cheap shock value lmao, GRRM aint that cheap. If Dany does die, it’s likely she’s either the Nissa Nissa part of the prophecy or she redeems herself through death. Theories like that actually make sense thematically.)

More proof? Before S1 even happened, GRRM straight up the directors of the show that Jon & Dany together are “the whole point” of the series. THE WHOLE POINT. As in their character arcs, them getting together…must have MEANING. The way the show’s done it. Having Dany go insane and killed by her lover and Jon go take the black for no fucking reason….it would be a damn mockery of everything GRRM’s written. Real talk, he's been building up the Jon/Dany thing for DECADES now. He wouldn't ruin that for cheap shock value. He only subverts fantasy tropes when it has meaning and makes sense thematically, not to pull a "haha, bet you didn't see THAT depressing ending coming!" He is not that stupid, nonsensical, and nihilistic.

For only show fans, just acknowledge that S8 is NOT CANON. It’s at best a very shoddy crack fic written by two hacks who neither understand the characters or want to. S8 …they are not OUR characters, just puppets moving mechanically to the strings of D&D’s script. Once a story is out there, it becomes an entity of its own: WE understand the characters, WE know the story, and we can tell when we’re being fed a mockery. It’s disheartening to see so many people losing hope or giving up on this ship or straight up deleting their stories. Don’t let two incompetent writers who probably wrote this shit drunk at 3 am, take away the joy we’ve found in these characters, this amazing story. There is still hope, find comfort that in the true universe, Jon and Dany haven’t even met yet and write your own fix-it. Rant. Vent. Be angry. Cry. But please come back to this fandom, I love this community and I hope to see it continue to thrive.

And hell, if you found this essay of mine to be wrong and still believe GRRM would write this garbage as his ending, let it be a comfort that we’ll probably never get his ending anyway. Ah, picture this: TWOW ending at a precarious, but hopeful moment where anything is possible for Jonerys. Things will go to shit in ADOS…but ADOS never comes out. Expectations successfully subverted!

**Author's Note:**

> Feel free to rant in the comments if you want. Remember that D & D know nothing. Remember that Martin won't write this shit. For jonerys, the sky's the limit. S8? What S8?   
> We will get through this and come back stronger, armed with an avalanche of fluff, smut, and fix-it fics.   
> Edit: good lord... was not expecting all those Rez fics.


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